Ethics on Planet Takeovers?

[Queen Bright]

A good point brought out and debated in IRC...

[12:00] <Zak> More have joined the Zarethian cause!
[12:00] <Zak> Tis a time for rejoicing!
[12:01] <Red> ...
[12:01] <Red> No its not.
[12:02] <Zak> Why not?
[12:03] <Zak> They are freed from their oppressive government and have me as their ruler!
[12:03] <Zak> What could possibly go wrong!
[12:04] <Nekaru> You know.. just because you take over a planet doesn't mean the people will have went to your will..
[12:04] <Nekaru> NPCs or not, people have free will.
[12:05] <Red> and besiiiiiiiides
[12:05] <Red> I WANTED TO TAKE THEM OVER
[12:05] <Red> And Hik, not if *I* took them with the Mechera
[12:05] <Zak> They will when its their only option
[12:05] <Red> Propaganda Hubs. Made specifically to override free will
[12:05] <Zak> Besides... considering the totalitorian government before and then the plex incident...
[12:06] <Nekaru> Um no.. argued this in the requests of Gaser's mind control, your mind control, and Gaser's virus.
[12:06] <Nekaru> You can control a bit. But there ALWAYS still free will.
[12:06] <Nekaru> You can brainwash someone. But their mind can still fight back if even slightly
[12:06] <Red> Hik...Mine's not mind control, so much as mind dampening
[12:06] <Nekaru> Doesn't override free will all the way or it's overpowered.
[12:07] <Zak> He just dampens their free thinking'
[12:07] <Zak> it can happen... but just not as much
[12:07] <Zak> Bastard
[12:07] <Red> It makes them sheeple. The thing about it is, though, they still need to get it redone on a bit of a constant basis
[12:08] <Red> Its basically the evils of watching too much TV: Evil Robots go and enslave you
[12:08] <Nekaru> ..There's still free will.
[12:08] <Nekaru> It's the one thing that can't be entirely destroyed no matter the method.
[12:08] <Nekaru> Free will is what humans/races are!
[12:08] <Red> I HAVE posted that the strongest willed are pretty much unaffected, and would know whats up anyways
[12:09] <Red> Its just those with weak wills become sheeple
[12:09] <Red> And the MAIN thing about it is that they dont consciously know anythings wrong
[12:09] <Nekaru> And I thought the Mechera were a good empire?
[12:09] <Red> Me? GOOD!?
[12:10]  * Nekaru sighs.
[12:10] <Red> The Mechera are...BETTER...Than many empires, but hell, I'd never make anyone necessarily good
[12:10] <Zak>
[12:10] <Red> Its more a case of Blue and Orange Morality
[12:10] <Zak> The Zarethians mostly are!
[12:10] <Red> In their culture, tere simply isn't much wrong with it.
[12:10] <Zak> Sorta
[12:11] <Zak> Not blue and orange morality, dude
[12:11] <Red> Concerning some things
[12:11] <Zak> Same thing with slaves in most cultures
[12:11] <Zak> It wasnt seen as wrong
[12:11] <Red> Eh. True
[12:12] <Red> but yeah, Hik, there may still be free will in the people, and they DO still have personalities
[12:12] <Zak> theyre just more open to suggestion
[12:12] <Zak> more malleable'
[12:12] <Red> They think for hemselves, sure. Just to a much more minor degree, and the main reason none fight it, is because they dont know anything's wrong
[12:12] <Nekaru> Taking over planets and enslaving them. Changing their culture, making them submit... If the Indians didn't like it.
[12:13] <Nekaru> Do you honestly thing the races of SP would?
[12:13] <Nekaru> That is not good.
[12:13] <Red> There is, however, nothing wrong with it in their own culture. And, to be completely fair, they're better than SOME empires.
[12:13] <Zak> I am good...
[12:14] <Nekaru> That last was directed at Zak.
[12:14] <Nekaru> Enslaving is not good
[12:14] <Zak> *cough* Anrufe*cough*
[12:14] <Zak> Their culture isnt erased
[12:14] <Zak> They arent forced into anything. They can be citizens or not.
[12:14] <Nekaru> You made them Zarethian.
[12:14] <Zak> yes.
[12:14] <Red> If anyones erasing cultures, its Hawk's stuff
[12:14] <Zak> They are
[12:14] <Nekaru> What if they didn't want to be? What if they wanted to be what they were before?
[12:14] <Red> Seriously, remember Duerme?
[12:14] <Nekaru> I don't read Hawk's topics. They're a waste of time.
[12:15] <Zak> Hik... Look at the description. Then look at the plex ecent
[12:15] <Zak> *event
[12:15] <Zak> Totalitorian.
[12:15] <Zak> Hitler
[12:15] <Red> Basically Hawk attacked a planet without defense.
[12:15] <Zak> Ben Lauden
[12:15] <Red> And actually harmed the civilians
[12:15] <Zak> I saved them from anarchy
[12:15] <Zak> I helped
[12:15] <Red> Zak
[12:15] <Red> To be fair
[12:15] <Zak> :F
[12:15] <Red> They might have WANTED their old government
[12:15] <Red> ...s
[12:16] <Zak> Nobody wants a totalitorian government except those in power.
[12:16] <Nekaru> Eiden wasn't Totalitorian..
[12:16] <Red> The oher was
[12:16] <Nekaru> " in contrast with the more lax leadership of the IDoM of Eiden."
[12:16] <Zak> More lax
[12:16] <Red> Eiden was more a Kingship
[12:16] <Zak> yippity skippity
[12:16] <Nekaru> I'm just saying. Sure it's a takeover and conquer game.
[12:16] <Red> ...Queenship
[12:16] <Zak> and what happened?
[12:17] <Nekaru> But even NPCs have wills..
[12:17] <Zak> The Plex event happened
[12:17] <Zak> No one was there. They went into anarchy. Millions died because there was no response
[12:17] <Red> Zak
[12:17] <Red> K2 didn't post that that happened
[12:17] <Red> Thats up to HIM
[12:17] <Zak> I dont care what K2 posted
[12:18] <Zak> Because the Negi are what they are, and in his original post they made anarchy happen, that is likely what happened
[12:18] <Zak> He had enough on his hands with restoring everything
[12:18] <Zak> He made a topic on EVERY PLANET
[12:18] <Red> I dont even know if it was three days, really
[12:18] <Zak> it was
[12:18] <Zak> today is the thirtieth
[12:19] <Zak> I posted it on the 27
[12:19] <Red> Meh, though
[12:19] <Red> And not what I meant
[12:19] <Zak> I helped them. The Zarethians are not bad.
[12:19] <Red> I meant about K2's attacks
[12:19] <Red> Zak
[12:19] <Red> If your taking over
[12:19] <Red> They will not always like you
[12:19] <Zak> No, they wont
[12:19] <Zak> and they can leave
[12:19] <Nekaru> The Americans weren't originally bad either..
[12:19] <Nekaru> If you want to go into your favor of history
[12:20] <Zak> The Zarethians arent them
[12:20] <Red> Leave to where, Mr. Zak?
[12:20] <Nekaru> Doesn't mean the Indians welcomed them
[12:20] <Zak> Space
[12:20] <Zak> A pocket dimension
[12:20] <Zak> Some did
[12:20] <Zak> Some liked them
[12:20] <Red> Where *IN* space. -_-
[12:20] <Zak> Its when the raiding, raping, miltarizing, ect
[12:20] <Zak> happened that the shit hit the fan
[12:20] <Zak> Anywhere they want
[12:20] <Red> Many would've stayed because they've got nowhere else to go, not because they actually liked you.
[12:20] <Zak> Id give them ships
[12:21] <Red> Zak, you can give 'em all he ships you want
[12:21] <Red> If they've got nowhere to go
[12:21] <Red> Theyve got nowhere to go
[12:21] <Zak> If they didnt like the Zarethians for some reason then they can leave
[12:21] <Zak> I can make pocket dimensions at the snap of a finger
[12:21] <Red> They cant leave if there is no place to leave to
[12:21] <Red> and pocket dimensions can be destroyed, Zak
[12:21] <Zak> So can planets
[12:22] <Red> Planets are harder
[12:22] <Zak> And asteroids
[12:22] <Zak> and suns
[12:22] <Red> Just destroy whatever is powering the Pocket Dimension
[12:22] <Zak> and people
[12:22] <Red> It goes gone
[12:22] <Zak> The pocket dimension doesnt need a power source.
[12:22] <Zak> It exists
[12:22] <Zak> As soon as you make it it is there.
[12:22] <Zak> Unless you have a controller
[12:22] <Red> its not a real dimension, Zak, you kind of do need to power it somehow
[12:23] <Red> I think I've read that...
[12:23] <Zak> Then bring that proof to me
[12:23] <Red> Meh
[12:23] <Red> Anyways
[12:23] <Zak> Until then screw off about it
[12:23] <Red> A lot of them would stay because theyve nowhere else to go
[12:23] <Red> Even if you give them ships
[12:23] <Red> And pocket dimensions
[12:23] <Red> And whatever
[12:23] <Zak> THEY HAVE A FUCKING PLACE TO GO!
[12:23] <Red> Its not their home, though
[12:24] <Zak> THE POCKET DIMENSIONS CAN LOOK LIKE WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT THEM TO
[12:24] <Red> Its still not their home.
[12:24] <Zak> They could make it exactly the way they wanted
[12:24] <Red> A home is where you've lived your life, where you've made your memories.
[12:24] <Zak> Hiro, Hik
[12:25] <Red> That is just a fake
[12:25] <Zak> If you two are so fucked up witht he 'morals' of it, then you go and NPC them
[12:25] <Red> Zak, I ain't concerned with the morality
[12:25] <Zak> YOU ARE TOO
[12:25] <Red> The mechera turn people into happy slaves
[12:25] <Zak> YOU ARE ARGUING ABOUT IT
[12:25] <Red> Im saying, they wouldn't necessarily like you
[12:25] <Nekaru> Eh.. I just think NPCs should be treated as real people. One of the reasons I hardly kill people even NPCs except with Kurai.
[12:25] <Red> Logically
[12:26] <Red> Kinda the same, really
[12:26] <Zak> The NPCs are real. AND I AM HELPING THEM
[12:26] <Red> Even WITH the Mechera Empire
[12:26] <Red> Helping is subjective, Zk
[12:26] <Red> You say helping
[12:26] <Red> They say oppressing
[12:26] <Zak> Then they can fuck off somewhere else
[12:26] <Zak> And besides, how do you know thats what theyre thinking?
[12:27] <Zak> They could very well be glad about help
[12:27] <Red> Considering how patriotic Shanghai has made them?
[12:27] <Zak> Glad to get rid of the oppressive government
[12:27] <Zak> And considering what happpened to them?
[12:27] <Zak> Plex?
[12:27] <Nekaru> As for the people of Dema, Bula Bula, and Japae...
[12:27] <Nekaru> Yeah, they can fight back. But Kurai's got them tortured 24/7
[12:28] <Zak> Even the most patriotic person can be swayed by bad circumstance
[12:28] <Zak> When you see loved ones murdered by your dark clone
[12:28] <Red> They'd still be more wishful to rebuild themselves
[12:28] <Zak> Possibly
[12:28] <Zak> And if you two want to give them a voice then go ahead and NPC them
[12:29] <Red> Anyways, though, even with my Mechera Empire...Gregory himself actually disdains ilitary actions taken against Civilians
[12:29] <Red> He considers it to be a war crime, in truth
[12:30] <Red> For the most part, to be honest, a lot of the things concerning the Propaganda and Media Hub and careflly made by other politicians to miss Gregory's view
[12:30] <Red> Despite the fact that they are basically enslaved, Gregory still maintains that they must be given certain freedoms and living conditions
[12:30]  * Zak has done nothing wrong
[12:31] <Red> The Mechera aren't good
[12:31] <Red> GREORY is
[12:31] <Red> And Zak, kinda as Hik said
[12:31] <Red> The beginnings of america, those people probably thought the same thing
[12:31] <Zak> And as I told her
[12:31] <Zak> The natives loved the first americans
[12:32] <Zak> it was when the disputes of land led to violence and bloodshed and rape and murder
[12:32] <Red> You never said that...
[12:32] <Zak> that things started going wrong
[12:32] <Red> The second part yes
[12:32] <Red> The first part of that you failed to mention
[12:32] <Zak> whatever
[12:32] <Zak> not like you dont do it
[12:32] <Red> Never said I did
[12:33] <Red> But I have a reason for why my slaves dont hate me most of the time
[12:33] <Zak> Many tribes peacefully integrated with the americans
[12:33] <Zak> and I have no slaves
[12:33] <Zak> they. are. citizens
[12:33] <Red> Suuuuuuuure you dont, Zak
[12:33] <Red> Suuuuuuuuuuure
[12:33] <Zak> they have rights, they get paid, they DO NOT get beaten
[12:33] <Zak> to do so is a crime'
[12:34] <Red> So do mine!
[12:34] <Zak> What do you mean, Hiro?
[12:34] <Zak> And yet you call them slaves
[12:34] <Zak> can they leave?
[12:34] <Red> The Mechera's slaves DO have rights, just no nearly as many as a citizen
[12:34] <Red> They COULD
[12:34] <Red> They just DONT
[12:34] <Zak> Can they own property?
[12:34] <Zak> why is that, Hiro?
[12:34] <Zak> Because they dont want to?
[12:34] <Red> Technically, they're given property
[12:34] <Zak> they dont care for it
[12:35] <Nekaru> If your government changes through takeover. You are a slave. Rights or not.
[12:35] <Zak> Slaves dont have the right to leave
[12:35] <Red> Exactly
[12:35] <Zak> My citizens do
[12:35] <Zak> my citizens can vote
[12:35] <Zak> they can change the politics
[12:35] <Zak> they have a voice
[12:35] <Nekaru> How about I post this on the forum and we can get others views on how this works in RP?
[12:36] <Zak> sure why not
[12:36]  * Zak prepares to lose
[12:36] <Red> But yeah...I've NEVER said the Mechera were a 'Good' empire
[12:36] <Red> Maaaaybe Chaotic Good
[12:36] <Red> But thats a small possibility
[12:36] <Nekaru> Not meant to be an argument or be against you Zak. I'm just curious what others see about it. And Hawkeye's takeovers as well.
[12:36] <Zak> And this is the first time the Zarethians have ever taken a planet with a population
[12:36] <Red> Most likely they're more neutral
[12:37] <Zak> Except Dema but then we had flying cities
[12:37] <Red> And you made nice with te natives
[12:37] <Zak> I know Hik, but my arguments will likely be lost on the likes of Hiro
[12:37] <Zak> Im making nice with these ones too
[12:37] <Red> Suuuuuuuuuuure
[12:37] <Zak> Hiro, you're bound to have people who dont like you.
[12:37] <Red> Suuuuuuuuuuuure
[12:37] <Zak> Thats fine
[12:37] <Red> In my own empire?
[12:37] <Zak> But I at least try
[12:38] <Red> Hell yeah i do
[12:38] <Zak> You enslave them
[12:38] <Red> Not all
[12:38] <Red> The Mechera dont enslave EVERY other race they come upon
[12:38] <Zak> You dull their minds. The narrikians are ruled by you
[12:38] <Red> The Narrikians are, actually, one of the only races this wasn't used on, to be honest
[12:38] <Zak> one of the only
[12:38] <Zak> look at the wording there
[12:39] <Red> Im not the one claiming anything otherwise
[12:39] <Zak> I am because Im not
[12:40] <Zak> My people have the choice
[12:40] <Red> If anyone is EVIL, though, the Narrikians were
[12:40] <Zak> They arent enslaved. They arent forced.
[12:40] <Red> He actually posted when taking over Duerme that the people would be put to work
[12:40] <Zak> They can leave. They can go to some virtual reality place. They can go to a pocket dimension.
[12:41] <Zak> Or they could stay and find work for the Zarethians.
[12:41] <Red> But would they abandon their home for a house, Zak? That is the question.

So, how do the rest of you see it? Is it right to take over planets and disregard the culture assuming the people switch to your government right away, as you destroy their culture and change their lives? Or should we give more voice to the NPCs and play it out in more detail when we take over a planet? Zak's not the only one that does this. K2s Anrufe just takes over, with no detail. Hawk completely destroys a planets cultures and enslaves them. And villains, well.. they don't count as they wouldn't be villains if they didn't enslave.
But for the empires that are supposed to be on the side of good or neutrality and not tyrants?

[K2]

Its up to the RPer whether they RP this or not. A good RPer would mention transistioning being rough in their posts. The K Empire on Earth started off shakily but the people have warmed up to K2323: The Anrufe, on the other hand, enslaves those on planets they take over and make the mlre loyal citizens or Level 4 Military, ie low ranking government officials who have slight say in government in exchange for service.

[Nisorin]

Factoring in NPC feelings doesn't tend to fit well with the board as a whole, since it's become very much based in military strength, fleet-based combat, etc. To be honest, I think everyone on the board, including myself, could use some work in exhibiting OPC feelings, nevermind NPCs. Besides, RPing stuff like that would need two RP'ers, lest we start consecutively posting and basically RPing with ourselves, a task difficult to do with the number of active members we currently have. I would like to see more people considering stuff like this in their RPing though, shows a higher understanding of what's going on and a higher ability to use it in the story.

[Ragnar the Red]

Power to the people. I think rebelling Natives is a great idea as long as they aren't actually powerful to overthrow the new gov without outside help.