Shattered Planes Archives (Seasons 4 & 5)
The Hub => Staff Updates => Suggestion Box => Topic started by: Gaserlake on April 17, 2013, 06:08:24 PM
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I'm pissed off for two reasons: One, is because the embodiment of Knowledge can break the fourth wall. I may not be staff, but I do NOT approve of this. It's only acceptable if it's a joke. Yeah... umm... jokes can cause a lot of damage, just like the last April Fool's joke. Some things can't be replace or be irreversible from jokes. Jokes can be facts, too. It causes a plot hole of why Knowledge can only break the fourth wall if it's only a joke. It's stupid and ridiculous. Physical and magical abilities are limited? Really? Even with the knowledge of every single magical spell, and every single technique to get massively strong, including using magic to get strong? Doubt it.
Smith? He's not breaking the fourth wall. And he has also been significantly limited. Knowledge? The explanation of it shows NOTHING of limits. Knowledge is hardly part of the game? Then why does he even exist in the first place? Just to take up space? Sounds like bs to me. It's just an idea? Then don't put it on SP, if you aren't going to use it. We can bring it up on Skype. I have tons of ideas for my characters, races, and technologies, but I don't put it on SP. Why? Cuz I know that it's godmodding. Smith? I use him from time to time, and I HAVE plans for him.
The second reason is because staff are becoming arrogant elitists. "Staff is in charge. It's staff decision. Get used to it." I thought that the staff is FOR the people. Apparently not. "Majority says it's okay." What about the minority? Apparently it's a "Too bad for you. Deal with it." That's unjust. Minority should have equivalent compensation, not just be an ignored group of protesters. Seriously, we're supposed to be a community of people helping each other out. "It's not me personally that approved it. It's the staff in general." Well, you represent the staff. Expect to be blamed for something that you represent does. You represent the staff, so you have more power than I do to make changes around here. "Please watch your tone." I made a complaint that has offensive language... yet you care about that more than what I'm trying to say? That's messed up. I may have not been the best staff, when I was staff, but I've certainly been much better than this.
Sure, I'm causing drama, but at least it's bringing attention to the abusing powers of Knowledge and the staff. Sometimes, you need a mess to clean things up. Hey, you need to break some eggs to make a cake. War may not be the best way to change things, but it is certainly the most effective way.
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Knowledge would technically control all "knowledge" in the SP/OK verse.
We are not apart of that verse; breaking the fourth wall is over extending his domain. Should be nulled.
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http://opposingkingdoms.com/forum/index.php?topic=2558.msg30938#msg30938 (back when Hik was staff. Beware, this was when I was dumb and stupid and lashing out at everything and everyone.)
Back when I had Epoch circles, technically with their abilities, they could break the fourth wall, and because they could it was the first magic technique to be restricted/banned. It wasn't until I expanded on it and decided that breaking the fourth wall was the only thing they could not do (along with embodiment shenanigans since those were the bees knees at the time.) that finally allowed their use again.
So we're backing out on a rule now?
(Truth be told, I'd rather not have the fourth wall be broken at all, despite my temperament back then.)
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Alright, Im wary of posting here because its my character but I'd like to put my two cents in and this does not necessarily reflect the overall staff opinion.
First off, jokes are jokes. Sometimes they're funny, sometimes they're not. Just because they broke the fourth wall doesn't automatically mean that the joke isn't funny. However, jokes can be harmful to people and not everyone realizes the consequences of their actions. That doesn't mean that joking should be condemned.
As well, I should point out that Knowledge doesn't care about power. He's a hedonist, he doesn't want anything more to experience the universe. It would be out of character for him to use the techniques he knows to become an all-powerful uber-being that could destroy all of existence. Its simply not something that he would do. I recognize the concern for power abuse but people are limited to what is logical for the character to do.
As well, Knowledge has never been said to be hardly part of the game. He exists as a potential plot point, particularly with a plot with regards to the Revenge-Zarethian war that Unstellar and I have planned. So, he does have a plan, he does have a purpose. Even topics he was in that are not part of the Revenge-Zarethian war have some purpose that I have looked into as a way of explaining his place there. Usually he manipulates people to his own gains or for his amusement. After the Revenge-Zarethian War I plan on him being removed unless the staff think they can use him.
Orph actually has a good point. I honestly didn't think about it that way. (I believe my issue was how it was explained to me, I thought that he would be able to know about, well, EVERYTHING) However, the thing is that the fourth wall has been broken other times (namely by Orga with his character Sam) and that caused no conflict that I can remember. That being said, if most people are opposed to any fourth wall breaking then the staff will probably listen to such. Before this, the only incident I remember is when I called Hikaru the RPer out for not posting as a joke, which was wrong of me. That prompted the newer "only for a joke; don't abuse" clause. Either way I didn't realize it was such a big issue.
As to the claim that the staff are arrogant elitists, well, I believe that this is entirely false. The fact that you disagreed with staff opinion, which has always (to my knowledge) been the final decision for matters in the site does not make them elitist or arrogant. As well, the staff listen to majority opinion then make a decision that they believe is best for the site and canon, etc. For the remark regarding the minority treatment, well, I believe that if the minority is in opposition to the majority then the majority (in some cases) is right and the minority is wrong. I'll use myself for an example. If I believe that the powers of my embodiement Knowledge work one way, but the rest of the members don't then I am probably wrong. Probably. If I bring it to the staff I let the staff decide. If the staff decide that it is OP then its probably OP and I, the minority, am wrong. This may well be the case, as we shall probably see soon enough.
The fact that you made a disrespectful response was the reason K2 told you to watch your tone, and this has been done by other staff members trying to stop anything that may incite a growth in the argument that may lead to flaming.
There is a difference between staff opinion and personal opinion. A staff member may hold a different view then the rest of the staff but that does not change the staff's overall opinion. This post, for example, is simply my personal opinion and is not the overall staff opinion to the best of my knowledge.
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s I do agree with Hitoper that the Embodiment of Knowledge is OP, I also want to point out that you bitched about point 2 when I was running staff. Dude... Make up your mind about who you want in charge. Otherwise stop bitching and suggest better alternatives.
Sorry if I'm being an ass, but Damn dude.
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I'll make a longer post later but as I've said... Staff has repeatedly said that breaking the fourth wall should be done for comedic purposes only.
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Joking should sometimes be condemned, such as joking about putting a bomb in a plane while you're in an airport. I think EVERYONE agreed that there needs to be an IC reason for only letting jokes pass when you're breaking the fourth wall. An OOC reason doesn't cut it. Sure, an OOC reason is to immediately put a stop or a restriction for things, but it isn't enough, as there would be plot holes everywhere.
Just because things have happened already, it doesn't mean that they were to happen again. In this case, just because Orga has broke the fourth wall, it doesn't meant that it is acceptable. In fact, it's unacceptable. You can make a joke about something, while it could have a hidden message telling someone that something's about to happen, or a certain piece of knowledge to become extremely powerful.
Nothing has been said about compromising with the minority... One part of elitism is that you don't care about the minority, while you follow what the majority wants, and ONLY listen to the majority. You put the majority in the "care for" group, while you put the minority in the "ignore" group. This has just happened. One part of arrogance is K2's insulting attitude towards me. I agree, I shouldn't have been disrespectful at all, but he has been disrespectful towards me, and indirectly towards lesser members of the board.
This is just my opinion, but Lyoko shouldn't be in charge, and K2 is close to getting to that point. Looks like we're running out of people. It doesn't matter if they are in charge or not; they're just at their respective points.I'm not asking to be staff. When it comes to staff, I'm just asking to have staff at least change their attitude toward lesser people like me.
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Joking about putting a bomb on a plane in the middle of an airport doesn't seem to quite fit the vein of the joking we're talking about, Gaser. As well, there are already plotholes everywhere, thats just how it is. Theres always going to be things that you don't think about, lines of thought you have looked into. Its not a bad thing necessarily. Or at least, its not im opinion.
Again, I cited Orga as an example because no one seemed to have an issue when he did it. You do now, of course, but at the time no one worried about it. Its also your opinion that its unacceptable.
The staff listens to everybody and proceeds to make a decision based upon what they think is right and fits. I'm sorry, but I didn't see K2 begin to be insulting towards you in the Skype chat we had. Blade was more insulting to you then K2, honestly. As well, the staffs decision has always been a final unless it was just the MOST UNPOPULAR THING EVER like how everyone went against Lyoko recently. Other then that, thats just how sites are run, dude.
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Joking should sometimes be condemned, such as joking about putting a bomb in a plane while you're in an airport. I think EVERYONE agreed that there needs to be an IC reason for only letting jokes pass when you're breaking the fourth wall. An OOC reason doesn't cut it. Sure, an OOC reason is to immediately put a stop or a restriction for things, but it isn't enough, as there would be plot holes everywhere.
Just because things have happened already, it doesn't mean that they were to happen again. In this case, just because Orga has broke the fourth wall, it doesn't meant that it is acceptable. In fact, it's unacceptable. You can make a joke about something, while it could have a hidden message telling someone that something's about to happen, or a certain piece of knowledge to become extremely powerful.
Nothing has been said about compromising with the minority... One part of elitism is that you don't care about the minority, while you follow what the majority wants, and ONLY listen to the majority. You put the majority in the "care for" group, while you put the minority in the "ignore" group. This has just happened. One part of arrogance is K2's insulting attitude towards me. I agree, I shouldn't have been disrespectful at all, but he has been disrespectful towards me, and indirectly towards lesser members of the board.
This is just my opinion, but Lyoko shouldn't be in charge, and K2 is close to getting to that point. Looks like we're running out of people. It doesn't matter if they are in charge or not; they're just at their respective points.I'm not asking to be staff. When it comes to staff, I'm just asking to have staff at least change their attitude toward lesser people like me.
I think after the first few leaders who give you the same treatment, you might want to think.... "Maybe its me?"
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Either that or all the leaders just suck.
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Well i suppose practical leadership principles that are proven to work in every other situation with normal people, and which make logical sense dont work here. Maybe, just maybe.... Its the members. Food for thought, and i also do keep in mind that i am now apart of that group now.
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...How is my opinion unacceptable? I'm not enacting my opinion. I'm merely stating it. What is this, now? Martial law, where I can't state my own opinion that's not offensive? If you took offense to my opinion about Orga breaking the fourth wall, then you're being oversensitive.
Yeah, Lyoko... maybe it's just me, and not my family at all. After multiple people are saying the same thing about me, it's probably true that it's all my fault, and none of it is their fault. Yeah, it was my fault that my uncle has fucking thrown me around like a fucking rag doll, and was one step away from punching my lights out. None of it was his fault. It was all my fault. He was right to do that to me, and I totally deserved it. Oh, and my mother condoned such action my uncle did to me. Multiple people said that it's my fault, and my uncle is in the right. Yeah, it's me. It's all me, and only me. Yeah... that's bullshit, and you know it. Also, you have problems accepting that some of the things that have happened are you fault. Just because more than one source says the same thing, it doesn't make it true. It's also possible that they're all wrong. Just like how multiple people recommended Lyoko as staff... They were all wrong, despite multiple people saying the same thing.
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Again, I cited Orga as an example because no one seemed to have an issue when he did it. You do now, of course, but at the time no one worried about it. Its also your opinion that its unacceptable.
Dude, dude, dude, dude, dude. No. I did not say that your opinion is unacceptable. Your opinion is fine, its just different. I say "It is your opinion that it is unacceptable." Saying that you think that but I do not. I am not in any way demeaning your opinion.
Alright so if everyone could take a breather here and come back with cool heads? Please? Can we not start some great flame bait and just try to figure out what we can do with the issues Gaser has presented? Please?
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Oh. Sorry about that. I thought you said "is". I just saw that you said "its".
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Nononononononononono I'm trying to keep things calm and collected and working here XD
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This is the last thing im saying regarding this. As i do empathize with your situation, Hitoper, you cannot always blame others for your problems. You get to choose, as a human being, how to let things like that affect you. I've had my fair share of shit dealt to me by life, but i take it all and learn. I don't blame other's actions for my weaknesses, i identify them, and take action to better them. No one can make you feel any way. Its all a choice whether most realize that or not.
If you've been abused before, you can deal with it in a variety of ways, but do not let anyone, no matter who they are, take away your right to choose for yourself. For once you lose that right, you are human no longer. I encourage you to use your pain as a tool to strengthen yourself. Dont use others as an excuse or a scapegoat for your problems. Its better to deal with them using positive and effective methods rather than make excuses.
This is not to put you down. This is to encourage you to become a better you. A stronger you.
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Well i suppose practical leadership principles that are proven to work in every other situation with normal people, and which make logical sense dont work here. Maybe, just maybe.... Its the members. Food for thought, and i also do keep in mind that i am now apart of that group now.
Dude; look around you. Logical, normal, and those things are not quite well stocked around here.
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Hitoper. First off, if I was being disrespectful towards you, I apologize. That was not my intent. My intent was to politely explain to you that member opinion certainly matters to us, but just because one or two members don't like a policy doesn't necessarily mean we will change it -- otherwise we'd be changing the plot every time someone disagreed with us. Instead, we listen to the concerns of the member (as we should be doing now, here) and think about it logically, talk it over with other members, and then make the final decision privately. Yes, it would be great if members could vote on every issue and if members could have the final call on everything, but they don't. We're not trying to be dictators because we really do listen to the members but ultimately we have to make the calls, that's our job.
More importantly, on the issue of Knowledge, I have always felt quite uncomfortable with it, not the breaking the fourth wall part though -- that's supposed to be treated as a joke, and thus, pretty much any breaking of the fourth wall isn't actually cannon. It's like the goof off section. It doesn't actually count. It's just for comedic purposes. This is what we have agreed to, I believe, about breaking the fourth wall.
More importantly I feel we are doing far too much godmoding here. Not just with embodiments but with everything. Make no mistake, this is not like Shattered Evolution. We're not going to pick apart everything. It's just important to make sure some things don't get too out of hand. The staff have been/will continue talking about what we feel is getting too powerful, and we will no doubt consult members about it before we take action. That's how we do.
As for this particular issue itself, I feel Knowledge is godmoding for the same reason I feel Time is godmoding, the idea that all of some history/information/whatever is recorded doesn't sound... Right to me. Both Hik and Zak have placed limits so their characters can't use that. Time doesn't actually remember everything. Knowledge's memory is broken into sections so he can't access it all at once. But I still feel uncomfortable about these things and many others.
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Time doesn't actually remember everything.
...She does. She just won't use it or share it as that would be breaking her stance on neutrality. Time is severely limited due to the fact she is neutral in everything.
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AGAIN, my idea of compromising with the minority has been ignored. You may listen to people, but you don't listen well. Or you have just ignored it. Either way, I want my idea to be acknowledged.
If it's such a great thing to have everyone to have the final call everything, then why isn't it like that?
So the breaking the fourth wall is not canonical? Eh... It doesn't seem like it... I mean, why hasn't anyone told me this in the first place? If I've been told that it wasn't canonical, then I wouldn't have made a fuss over it, except that it probably should BE in the goof off section.
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This forum really needs to clear up the democracy vs. oligarchy discussion. Is it mob rule, or are the staff sovereign? If it's NOT mob rule, then non-staff opinions, after being considered, can be rejected. I'm sick of seeing these large topics dedicated to stupid small issues. Staff, step up and make a decision.
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I've always thought it worked like this.
If a concept or rule affects the entire bored; either IC or OC. It's usually put to a vote among ALL members.
If it's just the maintenance of the site, basic rules, and minor stuff it's staff problems. Like involving true names went to a site vote, but making a new planet for no reason other then to add planets is staff business, and the staff has it's own staff sponsored lore events which are kept secret for obvious reasons. Remember; these are usually optional and totally cannot be considered the "main" story. They are only officially sanctioned plot events, and are usually canon due to staff acceptance of events.
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As I've always seen it we as staff can potentially do whatever we want. But we care about the members too much to actually do that. For major issues we do try to put things to a vote. As Orph said for some things we do not. Staff has the final say. We listen to members but can ultimately reject member input. Will we? No. But we have staff for a reason.
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I'd rather have it to where staff cares about members enough to where they would remove the privilege of doing whatever they want. Members help make up the board, too, especially in IC stuff, so they should have some say in IC stuff. They help make up the OOC stuff as well, as they contribute OOC things, as well. Votes? The only thing that does is to see what the members in general want to happen. It wouldn't matter in the end, anyway, because it's the staff's final say. Therefore, even if 100% of the non-staff members say no, the staff can still say yes, and make yes happen. Hell, the staff ARE the members, but it's like the process of a member becoming a staff is to be brainwashed into looking down on the members, as if they never experienced being a non-staff. We already had an incident where someone didn't care about the members enough to keep himself from abusing his powers, and rejected member input, as he was allowed to do whatever he wanted to do. Yet, in the beginning, he was a very accepted person. That was how he became the owner of the website in the first place. Nobody knew that he was going to do what he did, and the same applies to the current staff right now: we don't know what they're going to do. Therefore, I want to limit the staff's powers in a preventive action.
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Therefore, I want to limit the staff's powers in a preventive action.
Elaborate?
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I'd rather have it to where staff cares about members enough to where they would remove the privilege of doing whatever they want. Members help make up the board, too, especially in IC stuff, so they should have some say in IC stuff. They help make up the OOC stuff as well, as they contribute OOC things, as well. Votes? The only thing that does is to see what the members in general want to happen. It wouldn't matter in the end, anyway, because it's the staff's final say. Therefore, even if 100% of the non-staff members say no, the staff can still say yes, and make yes happen. Hell, the staff ARE the members, but it's like the process of a member becoming a staff is to be brainwashed into looking down on the members, as if they never experienced being a non-staff. We already had an incident where someone didn't care about the members enough to keep himself from abusing his powers, and rejected member input, as he was allowed to do whatever he wanted to do. Yet, in the beginning, he was a very accepted person. That was how he became the owner of the website in the first place. Nobody knew that he was going to do what he did, and the same applies to the current staff right now: we don't know what they're going to do. Therefore, I want to limit the staff's powers in a preventive action.
Okay... So I tried to stay off this topic but let me try to clarify things. Most of this, I can draw from Lyoko being admin. Some of it from K2. But other things don't fit.
Most of the staffers do listen to any member comments and complaints. Hiro, jeebus, Zak and Nisorin seem to excel at this. And I know you made this when staff opposed your ideals for something. However, other nonstaff members also disagreed and staff went with the majority.
If 100% of the members say "no" or even 51% of them choose so, the staff should go by that. A good example of this failure was the Eclipse. A good number of the member base said "no" and I said "no" to a degree(but for other reasons I'll leave out because it's off topic). The event continued for about 3 more days before ending because of a massive lack of activity.
Only in special cases can staff make a choice without regular members saying anything. However, virtually nothing I've seen so far gives them an option to do so.
Attempts to limit staff power is... Dumb... It will not allow them to preform actions they normally would. I do, however, believe that site owners shouldn't be head admin because they pay for the site. It makes sense that they "are" because they pay for it, but the actions previously committed kind of broke that idea for me. Methinks head admins should be responsible users. Not fools.
Those are my two cents. Gonna sleep on the bus now. Whee
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Theoretically, staff can do whatever we want. That doesn't mean we do.
We don't put a lot of what we do up to a vote but if its a major issue and we feel we need to get member input then we do. If staff had a reason to we would possibly go with the opposite of what the majority says, but we almost always go with the majority.
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Therefore, I want to limit the staff's powers in a preventive action.
Elaborate?
That there should be staff rules, to try to keep them from abusing their powers. If there are staff rules, K2's statement that staff can do whatever they want makes it seem like there are no staff rules.If 100% of the members say "no" or even 51% of them choose so, the staff should go by that. A good example of this failure was the Eclipse. A good number of the member base said "no" and I said "no" to a degree(but for other reasons I'll leave out because it's off topic). The event continued for about 3 more days before ending because of a massive lack of activity.
Is there a reason why the staff decision went against majority in the case of the Eclipse? K2, this and the recent incident contradict your statement that staff almost always go with the majority.
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We didn't go against the majority decision. We ended Eclipse because it was wildly unpopular and killing the board.
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Maybe it took you around three days to figure out that members didn't like it? I've also heard that the Eclipse event happened without any warning. The event's reception I'm getting is pretty bad. Either the event was executed without any warning, which is bad, because it means the staff can do things that affects the members without having to let the members know, or the members did have warning, but their decision against the event was ignored, which is also bad, because it means that the staff can go against the majority decision, even for an IC event.
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Maybe it took you around three days to figure out that members didn't like it? I've also heard that the Eclipse event happened without any warning. The event's reception I'm getting is pretty bad. Either the event was executed without any warning, which is bad, because it means the staff can do things that affects the members without having to let the members know, or the members did have warning, but their decision against the event was ignored, which is also bad, because it means that the staff can go against the majority decision, even for an IC event.
it was done with little to no warning. And the excuse by staff was this: well you guys didn't have any ideas. (They never asked c: )
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Theoretically, staff can do whatever we want. That doesn't mean we do.
But it doesn't mean that the staff WON'T The staff could have at least asked members for ideas, and proposed the Eclipse plot to them. After that, there was the incident with Lyoko. This shows that the staff can, and will, do whatever they want, even if it kills the board. I don't know where you're getting the idea that the staff almost always goes with the majority.
What do you want to happen, then, you may ask. I want more communication between the staff and the members to happen. How? The staff should act as if they're in the members' shoes, and understand the members' comments, concerns, ideas, etc. This is the first step.
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Um...For the record, Swift's mixing the Eclipse Event up with the Genesis event. The Magic Eclipse Event most everyone was fine and on board with, but what happened was that during a period of relative inactivity DURING the Magic Eclipse(which was more or less AM across all existence that couldn't be blocked), Hik and Lyoko met together(apparently they would've included me but I wasn't on when they held the meeting, and I should mention that at that time oth were staff) and set the 'Genesis' event forward without consent from the memberbase or rest of the staff than just them. Then decided to ignore us when half the forum(including myself) began to revolt and more or less only gave in to cancel the blasted thing when we just decided "Fuck this we're out". Just to clarify what happened there since not all of the points seem to be coming across at all.
EDIT:It occurs to me that it might be a good idea to explain what Genesis was about and why we were mad at it...Basically, the Genesis Event was a immediate Technology Lock that Lyoko and Hik thought would bring in activity...While Magic was currently fizzling and useless, so all it ended up doing really was locking most Empires and characters down, which many of us disliked.
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The revolt didn't happen until the Genisis thing got posted, but people were hating the Eclipse event from the get go, due to their characters/empires/whatever needing magic to survive cause they were in the middle of fighting, or in space, or their whole empire ran off off magic. Everyone just hated the whole thing in general.
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Well Hikaru and I kinda figured that it couldnt get more inactive than it already was considering it was really just myself, Hikaru, and Zak so we did go with the Genesis thing and combined it to make the Stone Age Multevent which was to encourage player to player personal interaction. Im still not sure why any of this is relevant because we resolved it in a pretty civilized manner considering our past experiences.
People need to get over things. 90% have been staff at one point or another, so we all know what its like to be on both ends of this. The Staff are responsible for everything that goes or doesnt go on, on this website. Much like a commander of a unit. The staff have this relatively unmetered power so that they can do what is necessary to ensure the survival of the site. Dont get mad because you were the minority or even because staff decided against the majority. Its really just you getting mad because you arent getting your way... get over it guys.
If you dont like how the site is run, do something about it, or quit. Dont just sit here and bitch. Yall know me, and should know that i call it like i see it.
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There's different forms of staff, however. "Administrator", "Moderator" these aren't just names for looks. There's differences between the two.
Almost every site you go on. The Administrators are the ones that run the board, the ones to decide who's banned, who's not, who to upgrade to staff, and every other decision about how the site is RAN.
Moderators on the other hand are normally just the people to take care of what's posted, the actions of others, and to report such things to the administrators to handle things. That's why they're different groups. That's why one has ACP access and the other does not.
So.. WHY when it comes to staff chats and decisions do moderators have voting power on decisions that only concern banning, staffing, and what not?
If you want to claim staff has full power and adhere to normal forum hierarchy, then technically Zak or any other moderator shouldn't be included in the decisions over how the site is ran either. That would fall to just K2, Jeebus, Nisorin, Hiro, and whoever else is ADMIN.
But you don't have that. You have mods having the same power and say as admins, just with no ACP access. Thus breaking how forums are usually ran anyways. So I think people have a right to complain when you ignore what the members say as if they have no say, yet at the same time treat mods as admins when normally mods as well have no say.
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If you dont like how the site is run, do something about it, or quit. Dont just sit here and bitch. Yall know me, and should know that i call it like i see it.
I'm doing something about it right now, by making a topic about this. I want things to change to a certain degree. So what do you expect me to do? Quit? That doesn't guarantee that things will change substantially. Hell, you made it to where members can be replaced, which seems like the staff agrees on it, otherwise the situation with you would have happened sooner. So any change from quitting that I would make would be minimal. Tell me one thing, other from discussing about it, which I'm doing right now, that I'm allowed to do, that would change the website.
Lyoko, it's not just about not getting my way. It's also about HOW it's not going my way. It would be unfair if I get banned for literally no reason, or if the reason would be that the staff feels like it. Yes, it wouldn't be going my way, but I would also be pissed because on how unfair it would be.
Plus, the ratio of active staff member to active non-staff member is very unbalanced. There really needs to be less staff members than there are right now.
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Like Nisorin, K2, and Hiro.
Nisorin isn't active ever.
K2 is hardly active and when he is he just breaks things or does things without any input from anyone. (Um dude there's no reason we can't have a wiki AND forum articles)
Hiro doesn't know how to use the ACP and is better off a mod due to that.
If you're gonna be a damn admin, have the skills for it. And the time, seriously. Jeebus also has no time... In fact, none of the staff members do except for Hiro who doesn't have the skills. So no wonder our site sucks. The admins have neither time nor skills.
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I don't think Hiro has any experience with the ACP, so I would give him a chance with being an admin. Other than that, I agree with Hikaru.
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I don't think Hiro has any experience with the ACP, so I would give him a chance with being an admin. Other than that, I agree with Hikaru.
Um dude.. that's more of a reason for him NOT to be staff. You don't put someone that hardly knows what they're doing in charge.
It's a position that's earned or appointed due to the skills they posses to help. Not some training job.
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I still have ACP panel aptitude, enough for minor board maintenance. Been here for years.
Properly medicated and rather prone to rampant episodes of cleaning/updating/helping.
Only reason I ever lost admin powers was due to me choosing to leave after being unable to continue the story with the involvement of Taylor.
I'm also handsome.
And, completely for the people most of the time. But I'm not an overly democratic idiot. Some shit should be staff/founder business. For reasons.
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You forgot to say if you had time or not :P
You, Me and Gaser have time.
You, Me, and Lyoko have skills.
But we're the ones that will probably never be staff again.
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What I meant to say is that I think he should be taught how to use the ACP, and then give him a chance to see how he does. It's pretty much a probation. I would think that training should be provided to those who aren't skilled, but are otherwise fit to be an admin, and are chosen to be an admin. Hiro seems to be a very reasonable person, in my eyes, and he has some experience as staff doing things that aren't part of the ACP, so I think he should be taught on how to use the ACP to serve as a more efficient admin. That way, if he succeeds, he WOULD be someone fit to be in charge. If he doesn't succeed, then I would suggest moving him down to a mod, as there would be no need for him to have access to the ACP, while others are fit to have ACP access.
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Here's my opinion on a truly successful staff setup:
An odd number of members. One is appointed Head Admin. This member's new role is as a sort of Speaker of the House. Makes sure EVERYONE can get their part said, keeps the peace amongst staff, etc. Beyond keeping the peace between staff members, this person has no more power than any of the other admins.
The others are admins and mods both. None of them should be so stubborn that they won't accept compromise. They should be able to work well with each other, and respect each other enough to consider their ideas. Most importantly, their primary care should be for the members. Not the board, not the story, the members. Without the members a board dies.
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You forgot to say if you had time or not :P
You, Me and Gaser have time.
You, Me, and Lyoko have skills.
But we're the ones that will probably never be staff again.
I'll give you that.... But i made time when i could.
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Here's my opinion on a truly successful staff setup:
An odd number of members. One is appointed Head Admin. This member's new role is as a sort of Speaker of the House. Makes sure EVERYONE can get their part said, keeps the peace amongst staff, etc. Beyond keeping the peace between staff members, this person has no more power than any of the other admins.
The others are admins and mods both. None of them should be so stubborn that they won't accept compromise. They should be able to work well with each other, and respect each other enough to consider their ideas. Most importantly, their primary care should be for the members. Not the board, not the story, the members. Without the members a board dies.
This.
While the story and board are major parts of the series..they don't matter if no one is posting. This has to be a place of fun, enjoyment, and creativity.
I have time; I'm unemployed, and even when employed I'm still addicted to the internet.
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Here's my opinion on a truly successful staff setup:
An odd number of members. One is appointed Head Admin. This member's new role is as a sort of Speaker of the House. Makes sure EVERYONE can get their part said, keeps the peace amongst staff, etc. Beyond keeping the peace between staff members, this person has no more power than any of the other admins.
The others are admins and mods both. None of them should be so stubborn that they won't accept compromise. They should be able to work well with each other, and respect each other enough to consider their ideas. Most importantly, their primary care should be for the members. Not the board, not the story, the members. Without the members a board dies.
At least there's a staff member that's trying to figure this out. This might be a good idea, though it's sad that we have to suggest having someone take position to make sure everyone gets their voices heard. If we can already get people's voices heard, then we don't really need a Head Admin, that would to serve as something like a Speaker of the House.
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Oh goodness you guys are so silly.
You guys need a recruiting network, that's your problem. And no one wants to join a story 27 years in-the-making. Or at least no one I know of. Especially one that, for all its novelty & nostalgia, has so many plot holes I've often confused it for Swiss cheese. Members are great & administration is great and those two together are great & if you have those both that's just amazing.
But like still to get members you need to give them a reason to want to join.
What's that reason now?
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Oh goodness you guys are so silly.
You guys need a recruiting network, that's your problem. And no one wants to join a story 27 years in-the-making. Or at least no one I know of. Especially one that, for all its novelty & nostalgia, has so many plot holes I've often confused it for Swiss cheese. Members are great & administration is great and those two together are great & if you have those both that's just amazing.
But like still to get members you need to give them a reason to want to join.
What's that reason now?
^
This
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Oh goodness you guys are so silly.
You guys need a recruiting network, that's your problem. And no one wants to join a story 27 years in-the-making. Or at least no one I know of. Especially one that, for all its novelty & nostalgia, has so many plot holes I've often confused it for Swiss cheese. Members are great & administration is great and those two together are great & if you have those both that's just amazing.
But like still to get members you need to give them a reason to want to join.
What's that reason now?
^
This
^
There is no real reason right now. C:
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It'd help a lot if staff got their fucking stories and priorities straight on WTF they ban people for. Instead of making up a stupid reason that isn't even liable or true, banning on basis of that. Changing the ban to something longer due to offline or offsite reasons. Changing the ban yet again when confronted for both reasons, and then just not doing anything at all afterwards.
Misscommunicating with one another to who even is in control of the ban. And telling the user to wait it out (without a time limit) and shut up about it for the time being, in other words stalling and going in circles just because they have no reason TO ban and lost what was going on themselves.
YEAH this helps site activity and faith in staff a lot. Definitely. Bans for no reasons, stalling, misscommunication, and butting into real life affairs. Because people totally love to be led in circles. I would definitely want a staff like that on other sites I visit, yep.
Fucking messed up.
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This is true. Hiro and Jeebus don't know what's going on, anymore, K2 doesn't what to do, and Dan says that this isn't up to him. Total miscommunication within the staff, and I thought it was just between the staff and the members. The reason for the ban has been inconsistent. One staff member says this; one staff member says that.
What's also true is that it's wrong to ban Hikaru for self-harm. Yes, that is one reason why she's banned, if that's still the current reason. Hikaru has done self-harm for being banned. Continuing something that has already been caused by what's already happened is not a good thing. What I'm saying is, increasing Hikaru's ban for self-harm, while the ban is the cause of Hikaru's self-harm, is illogical and immoral, as it is likely to increase Hikaru's self-harm, which defeats the purpose of trying to keep her from harming herself.
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wat
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Well allow me to play Devil's advocate for a seconds here guys.
I understand to a point why the staff decided on a ban for Hikaru based on threats of self-harm. From a psychological point of view, this site and the RP contained within it have negative effects on her. Same thing with getting out of a bad relationship, many of the partners want to commit suicide or self-harm, and it is generally deemed better to find closure rather than prolong it. This RP isnt gong to be around forever, i can say that for certain. Although engraved in digital code, forever on the internet, the RP itself will eventually die.
The point im getting at is that this site has such negative effects on her, similar to just about any addiction, it is better to remove what they are addicted to, albeit not always cold-turkey. I know this because i have a similar addiction to this website, although not nearly as large of one. I can let the site go if need be.
Secondly, if she did prove that she would and could cause harmful effects to the site's infrastructure, then the staff do have every right to ban or do what ever is necessary.
However, that is where my support for the staff ends. Banning someone based upon non-site related issues is unethical, and an abuse of power. Im not implicating the staff in doing that, but Hikaru has a point about it. The staff also do have the right to ban for starting drama, BUT do have strict, lain out guidelines for such punishments. Guidelines which the have not followed, and which i was bitched at when followed.
The staff claiming that they dont know what is going on is a fucking cop-out. Seriously. In any unit, or group of organization, the leader or leaders are responsible for anything the unit does, or fails to do. The unit's performance is a direct reflection upon its leadership. Leaders are responsible to know what is going on in the very group they are leading. With a site that hasnt ever broken more then 15 active members, i cant see where this is hard to do when ~33% of them are staff. They should know, and if they dont, then that is also a direct reflection upon their leadership abilities.
Simple point: Get to knowing, or let your failure consume you. Your choice.
As always, I encourage you all to do better.
Regards,
Lyoko222
Former Disgruntled Administrator
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In a democracy, which this site should be, the people, in this case, the members, should have the right to alter or abolish the government, in this case, the staff, if the government is destructive toward unalienable rights, which is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which, in this case, is including, but not limited to, protection from unfair banning. In other words, the members should be able to make changes to the staff's system, if there's reasonable cause for it. In this case, there are. Actions and behavior of arrogance. Miscommunication. Unfair banning, including an invalid reason for the banning, and the lack of staff discussion on the banning, which called for a discussion, due to how the situation, which the ban took place in, was complicated.
Let's get this straight. These are my proposals: Staff is required to be active at least once everyday. This should not be too much for those who are dedicated. If you aren't that active, be active. If you can't, then step down. One special reason for this, is because the site is dying, and it needs special attention to stay alive.
For communication, staff should let each other know everything that's going on with the site, except for things that's acceptable to be hidden, such as IC plots, and OOC plans for IC activity. If it's not affecting the site, then it should not be officially addressed by the staff. Sure, staff can chit-chat on things that are irrelevant to the site, but not when it comes to business. This is what the staff chat is for.
For important events that require staff attention, such as actions that deserve punishment, immediate action should only take place if time is of the essence. Meaning, if someone is spamming the fuck out of the site with posts, then yes, a suspension is appropriate, as the sooner the suspension, the less spam, the better. If it's something that is simple, such as the example of someone spamming the site, or something like a character request, then immediate action can take place. If it's a complicated matter, such as a flame war between two or more people, that's when things become complicated, hence the matter being complicated. It would be in the middle. Some actions can be immediate, while other actions cannot, until staff has decided on what to do. For example, there's a flame war between two or more people. It's acceptable for official warnings, or even posting restrictions, to take place. Suspensions, on the other hand, need staff decision to be executed.
Respect. Yes, that's a big one, too. Staff should always respect members, as if the staff are just ordinary members. This would be the best way for the staff to try to be in the lesser people's shoes, as mutual understanding can take place. In order for staff to gain respect from members, they need to show respect. Yes, it goes both ways, but it works doubly for the staff, as the staff have special privileges and responsibilities that lesser people do not have. Admins have the special ability to permanently ban members, so they have the special responsibility to stay cool, not let their emotions get the better of them, and respect the members. Staff that do not show respect for members should be reported, as members should be worried for their membership on this website, if that would be the case.
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand back to devil's advocate.
Gaser, unfortunately due to the..... special nature of our memberbase, logical and fair real life concepts of organization apparently dont work on this site. That is why the staff make the decisions. Also, being active EVERY day is an unrealistic expectation for anybody who has a life and is a productive member of society.
The method of organization we have on this site seems to be the closest thing to good as we can hope for.
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Also, being active EVERY day is an unrealistic expectation for anybody who has a life and is a productive member of society.
I think, as you said, due to the special nature of your member base, you shouldn't have a problem fulfilling this expectation. Well, the first part, anyway.
To be honest I think he is right, considering the size of the member base, staff shouldn't need to be active every day. The fact they might need to be active every day anyway is more of a testament to the poor attitude of the community than it is the requirement for staff members. In my opinion of course.
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Also, being active EVERY day is an unrealistic expectation for anybody who has a life and is a productive member of society.
I think, as you said, due to the special nature of your member base, you shouldn't have a problem fulfilling this expectation.
Im not sure what thats supposed to mean, but im one of the few people on this forum who has a real job and career. The only people who can meet this expectation indefinitely are people who do nothing with themselves everyday. So, yes. It IS an unrealistic expectation to be active every single day. The extent of my "activity" on this website on a daily basis is my loading up SP on my phone, checking recent posts, then closing it if there are none. That is not activity.
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I have a life, yet I'm on here everyday. I go to college, go to a club there, and I'm planning to be in student government of that college. I'm starting to look for a job, and I'm starting to look for a place to live away from my family. I'm learning kung fu, and I go to a chess club. I also hang out with my friends on a weekly basis. After all of this, I still have plenty of time to be on the computer. PLENTY of time. Of course, I would have considerably less time on the computer after I get a job, but I would still have AT LEAST an hour to check on SP.
I meant 'activity' as in, staff checking up on SP, seeing how things are doing, and responding to things. Important things, of course.
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Calm down Mr. Defensive. The 'you' was directed at this forum as a whole, as I'm sure most people on it have plenty of time to be on the internet and muck about & such. And if you read one more sentence on you'd see that I was agreeing with you.
Also, completely unrelated, Hitoper, would you like to play chess sometime?
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I understand that you're agreeing with me. I was responding to Lyoko's post.
And sure. I'd like to play some chess.
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Calm down Mr. Defensive. The 'you' was directed at this forum as a whole, as I'm sure most people on it have plenty of time to be on the internet and muck about & such. And if you read one more sentence on you'd see that I was agreeing with you.
Sorry. It just seemed like you were implying something else.
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Oh, wait. Nevermind, lol. Disregard the first paragraph of my previous post. I thought Emily's first paragraph of her last post was directed towards me.
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WAT
THE
FUCK
ARE YOU TALKKINNGG ABOOUUTT