The Mind, Memories, and Spirit.

[Queen Bright]

Best place I can find for this.. fits Grimoire but since we're doing IRL concepts as well, and it's a branch of metaphysics. It would go here best...

Anyways... Seeing as we have A LOT of tech and magic requests debating this where people want to steal/copy/or delete memories and the mind... Let's this get this the hell over.  I did not bring the memories and mind being of the spirit into SP just out of imagination. I took it from belief on how it works IRL, and how it makes sense IRL, and ironically it was backed up in Philosophy this and last semester as one of the debates we actually went over.

So. The age old debate question for everyone. Is Your Mind Your Brain?

For the IRL theory. The term is interchanging, unlike on SP (Where K2 decided to turn a soul into an organ -.-) So Soul/Spirit/Consciousness/Mind.... Call it what you will for this.

Anyways...

No the Brain is not the Mind. Not on SP, not IRL. The brain can die, and sure the mind may not be able to interact with your body anymore, thus you are 'dead,' but mind is still there. (We're not playing religion here, pure philosophy.)

The two arguments that back this up are....

P1: If all is matter then thinking must be a motion of atoms in the brain.
P1: Thinking is not a motion of atoms in the brain.
Conclusion: Therefore it is not the case that all is matter.

and

P1: The most immediately known is the most certainly known.
P2: The self is the most immediately known.
Conclusion: Therefore the self is the most certainly known.

I'm just gonna summarize wtf we basically learned. But for the first argument it's not saying that thinking is caused by a motion of atoms but that it's identical to a motion of atoms. So the brain can still be involved in thinking and we're not saying that there can be brain activity without thinking. It's just saying is thinking entirely a brain or a physical activity?

Two things are identical if they have the same set of qualities. Thinking has the qualities of true and false... Motions of atoms have the qualities of up, down, fast, slow, straight, and curved. True and False cannot be identified with any combination of the pairs. Fast/Slow admits of degrees, where True/False does not. Up/Down differ, without one being referable. In True and False there is difference and preference. Fast and Straight differ but both are seen as physical properties. True has no spatial quality as fast does. Therefore thinking is not motion of any kind.

Second argument...

This one was aimed to show that the Spirit/Soul/Mind/Consciousness/Non-Material thing exists.
First argument basically showed for us that thought can't be accounted for by brain activity.
Second argument aims to show that perception, and self-consciousness which accompany it cannot be accounted for as brain activity alone.

So is the brain the mind or is the brain the  Spirit/Soul?

Think of a table. Say that there is a table right in front of you. You know that the table is before you because it is immediately present  to you in time and space. The table that you see or in material terms, 'the cause of the table that you see,' is said to be several feet in front of you And it's also said that you see the table with your eyes and your brain. You see the table through a process of light waves coming to your eyes, neural impulses firing in your brain, and more.
 
To analyze what is most immediately known...

1. There is a cause of the table that you see several feet away from you.

2. The light waves coming from the table to your eyes are more immediate than the table. Yet the light waves are not themselves seen, nor are they conceived to be shaped like the table. Another step is needed to get the table that you see.

3. Nerve impulses form in your optic nerves, and in the process of perception, are more immediate than the light waves. But the neural impulses are not seen and they are not conceived to be shaped like a table. Furthermore the neural impulse is the last brain activity. Another step is needed to get to the table that you see. If must go beyond the neural impulse, the last brain activity, therefore it must go beyond the brain.

4.The next step is the table that you see. The table that you see is not a physical table anywhere in the brain, nor is it identical with the cause of the table that you see outside your brain. But if the table is not in space at all, either inside or outside your brain, neither is it nothing at all. The table that you see must be non-physical, a mental image representing the neural impulse. The mental image is more immediate to the perceiver than the neural impulse. Unlike the neural impulse (content of) the mental image is seen and it is shaped like the table. Furthermore the mental image does not perceive itself but you are aware of yourself as the perceiver.

5. The self is more immediately known than the mental image. It is the perceiver of the table and you are aware of he self as having no size but consciousness. There is nothing of which can be more immediately known than the self.

So you see a table in front of you. But if you close your eyes and think table. You do not see THAT table. There's no light waves, no neural impulses. Yet when you think table you see an image of a table in your mind. May not be that table, or another table you've seen. But you see A TABLE. With no shape. It is that table which the self is perceiving.

But since we've ruled out brain. The self which is characterized as having consciousness and no size holds the same qualities and characteristics as a soul/spirit.

And that's why the brain is not the mind IRL. And so neither is it SP. Memories/Thoughts/THE MIND is of the Spirit here.

Anyone got anything else?

[@Pokemon Master Red]

I can agree that mind and blah aren't ENTIRELY physical. But...I still say its PARTIALLY the brain. After all, if its not, then it wouldn't be possible for mental disorders to occur because of brain trauma, or for said disorders to be treated by medications(for two examples). If the mind itself had nothing to do with the brain, these would be entirely impossible and the condition of one's brain would not affect one's mental sanity.

[Queen Bright]

It uses the brain to work the body. Aka mental disorders and crap and why amnesia works when we can't get at our memory. I like to think of it as a control panel to our body and physical features. However if the brain dies, we no longer can access that physical side, but our mind and memories and who we are are still there.

Mental disorders are of the brain not the mind... One has anxiety because of a disorder in the brain that their mind can't work their 'body' right and the anxiety causes the physical sensations and fear through andrenalin. If they were free of the brain and the body I'd like to think they wouldn't have a problem with the anxiety anymore... Anxiety is physical. But say Hypochondria is mental as it's reason put to the anxiety.

Depression is physical. The suicidal and such responses are the logic the person with depression put to that bodily response through the use of Reason. The medication heals the physical side and so they don't have those 'feelings,' to cause them to reason in such a way.

[@Pokemon Master Red]

Er...The amnesia one doesn't make sense(other ones maybe but eh, unsure).
You've already said that the memories, personality, mind itself is entirely separate. If that's so, then I don't see why the mind would be incapable of basing decisions based on their memories due to damage in the brain. From what your saying, brain damage would only cause inabilities to properly control your body(moving a arm, for example), at worst being paralysis. After all, the memories and personality are not physical...Physical brain damage therefore cannot change the way we think. Because it still does, there must be some physical aspect to our mind, such as storing information within neurons. Elsewise...again, physical damage wouldn't lose us our memories, which changes the way we think. But that's impossible if there is no physical aspect to our mind.

[Nisorin]

The brain would be the interface we use to interact with these memories, if that interface is damaged, accessing those memories would be far more difficult, if not impossible. The memories would still be there, just inaccessible.

[Ragnar the Red]

But then wouldn't you have to go into how the brain has certain parts associated with the spirit? I mean, you don't become lobotomized as soon as you get amnesia. It takes different attacks on the brain to make you loose different parts of you. For this to be the brain and mind must be highly connected to the point where the mind would be highly damaged if it ever lost the body or be connected. The other option would be that of the three kinds of memory, some would so happen to be stored in the mind (eg, physical memory, remembering how to walk or swim would be a perfect example of one that would be in the mind).

Also, as much as I agree with your explanation of the second argument, it can still be argued against. For starters, our eyes does see the light waves in the shape of a table, simply an upside down table. Your brain flips the image for you after it gets used to seeing things upside down, as we have seen in experimentation. To deny that the brain does this would be to say that physical memory is of the mind, not the brain.

Lastly, I think religion and philosophy are a lot closer linked than you think.

[Queen Bright]

Okay, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I don't know everything as I'm still taking Philosophy >.<, so I went and asked my Professor.

He explained it like this... (kinda weird but makes sense in the end.)

Think of the brain as a tool. Say you use a hammer to hammer a nail into the wall. The brain is the hammer, the nail is the world. If you break the hammer handle off and just use the metal end, will it hammer the nail? No. The tool is damaged and interacting with the nail is harder and nearly impossible. The brain as a tool if damaged can no longer interact with the world, yet the spirit is still there. Soo... Nsiorin got it head on for things like Amnesia and disorders.

[Ragnar the Red]

What I was trying to say was that it would be more like a Swiss Army Knife: a gazzillion tools devoted to a gazzillion uses (Different parts of the brain would represent different tools of the knife)

[Kalorph_]

You guys are forgetting the fact that the brain has been proven to be an organic data storage device. :/

[Queen Bright]

How? By science (a form of fideism) that relies on "appearance is reality," and other fallacies. I want the documents. Because so far Philosophy seems to disprove it.

[Kalorph_]

Philosophy is not based in fact nor rooted in proof.

1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
5. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
6. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
7. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
8. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.

Not a science, and last I checked. We don't have philosopher's building bridges, or performing heart surgery.

[Capxeno]

Even if Science proved it, SP science =/= RL science. There are many borrows and shared concepts, but not the same nor does it have to be.

[Queen Bright]

The philosophy I'm going off of is #2. Science is Empiricism. Class is teaching Rational Presuppositionalism. The less basic things in light of the most basic.

[Kalorph_]

Actually no.

We have always used scientific methods and logical reasoning to try to decide if a scientific invention is acceptable. Which isn't science Hikaru; man is inherently imperfect, flawed, and ignorant. That is not an acceptable course of action to decide things for an RP that is part science-fiction.

[Queen Bright]

For the spiritual part it is. It's not just science fiction it's also fantasy. And for the Memories/Mind they are of the Spirit. Not everything is matter like it or not Orph.

[Ragnar the Red]

Hik, you are absoltally right on that last point.

However

You guys are forgetting the fact that the brain has been proven to be an organic data storage device. :/

good point here aswell. I don't want to see it get brushed over.

[King Jeebus]

I'm uncomfortable with you stating in what should be an in-RP thing as if it were fact IRL.
That aside, I see no reason why this cannot be true to SP considering we have magic and physics defying crap left right and center.

[Ragnar the Red]

Yeah, I know. I'm pretty sure having Hikaru's method works perfectly, and is what we would do anyway, but I personally am interested in this discussion.