Seriously?

[Gaserlake]

I'm pissed off for two reasons: One, is because the embodiment of Knowledge can break the fourth wall. I may not be staff, but I do NOT approve of this. It's only acceptable if it's a joke. Yeah... umm... jokes can cause a lot of damage, just like the last April Fool's joke. Some things can't be replace or be irreversible from jokes. Jokes can be facts, too. It causes a plot hole of why Knowledge can only break the fourth wall if it's only a joke. It's stupid and ridiculous. Physical and magical abilities are limited? Really? Even with the knowledge of every single magical spell, and every single technique to get massively strong, including using magic to get strong? Doubt it.

Smith? He's not breaking the fourth wall. And he has also been significantly limited. Knowledge? The explanation of it shows NOTHING of limits. Knowledge is hardly part of the game? Then why does he even exist in the first place? Just to take up space? Sounds like bs to me. It's just an idea? Then don't put it on SP, if you aren't going to use it. We can bring it up on Skype. I have tons of ideas for my characters, races, and technologies, but I don't put it on SP. Why? Cuz I know that it's godmodding. Smith? I use him from time to time, and I HAVE plans for him.

The second reason is because staff are becoming arrogant elitists. "Staff is in charge. It's staff decision. Get used to it." I thought that the staff is FOR the people. Apparently not. "Majority says it's okay." What about the minority? Apparently it's a "Too bad for you. Deal with it." That's unjust. Minority should have equivalent compensation, not just be an ignored group of protesters. Seriously, we're supposed to be a community of people helping each other out. "It's not me personally that approved it. It's the staff in general." Well, you represent the staff. Expect to be blamed for something that you represent does. You represent the staff, so you have more power than I do to make changes around here. "Please watch your tone." I made a complaint that has offensive language...  yet you care about that more than what I'm trying to say? That's messed up. I may have not been the best staff, when I was staff, but I've certainly been much better than this.

Sure, I'm causing drama, but at least it's bringing attention to the abusing powers of Knowledge and the staff. Sometimes, you need a mess to clean things up. Hey, you need to break some eggs to make a cake. War may not be the best way to change things, but it is certainly the most effective way.

[Kota]

Knowledge would technically control all "knowledge" in the SP/OK verse.
We are not apart of that verse; breaking the fourth wall is over extending his domain. Should be nulled.

[Embodiment of Cringe]

http://opposingkingdoms.com/forum/index.php?topic=2558.msg30938#msg30938 (back when Hik was staff. Beware, this was when I was dumb and stupid and lashing out at everything and everyone.)
Back when I had Epoch circles, technically with their abilities, they could break the fourth wall, and because they could it was the first magic technique to be restricted/banned. It wasn't until I expanded on it and decided that breaking the fourth wall was the only thing they could not do (along with embodiment shenanigans since those were the bees knees at the time.) that finally allowed their use again.

So we're backing out on a rule now?

(Truth be told, I'd rather not have the fourth wall be broken at all, despite my temperament back then.)

[Beware Ye Who Enter Here]

Alright, Im wary of posting here because its my character but I'd like to put my two cents in and this does not necessarily reflect the overall staff opinion.

First off, jokes are jokes. Sometimes they're funny, sometimes they're not. Just because they broke the fourth wall doesn't automatically mean that the joke isn't funny. However, jokes can be harmful to people and not everyone realizes the consequences of their actions. That doesn't mean that joking should be condemned.

As well, I should point out that Knowledge doesn't care about power. He's a hedonist, he doesn't want anything more to experience the universe. It would be out of character for him to use the techniques he knows to become an all-powerful uber-being that could destroy all of existence. Its simply not something that he would do. I recognize the concern for power abuse but people are limited to what is logical for the character to do.

As well, Knowledge has never been said to be hardly part of the game. He exists as a potential plot point, particularly with a plot with regards to the Revenge-Zarethian war that Unstellar and I have planned. So, he does have a plan, he does have a purpose. Even topics he was in that are not part of the Revenge-Zarethian war have some purpose that I have looked into as a way of explaining his place there. Usually he manipulates people to his own gains or for his amusement. After the Revenge-Zarethian War I plan on him being removed unless the staff think they can use him.

Orph actually has a good point. I honestly didn't think about it that way. (I believe my issue was how it was explained to me, I thought that he would be able to know about, well, EVERYTHING) However, the thing is that the fourth wall has been broken other times (namely by Orga with his character Sam) and that caused no conflict that I can remember. That being said, if most people are opposed to any fourth wall breaking then the staff will probably listen to such. Before this, the only incident I remember is when I called Hikaru the RPer out for not posting as a joke, which was wrong of me. That prompted the newer "only for a joke; don't abuse" clause. Either way I didn't realize it was such a big issue.


As to the claim that the staff are arrogant elitists, well, I believe that this is entirely false. The fact that you disagreed with staff opinion, which has always (to my knowledge) been the final decision for matters in the site does not make them elitist or arrogant. As well, the staff listen to majority opinion then make a decision that they believe is best for the site and canon, etc. For the remark regarding the minority treatment, well, I believe that if the minority is in opposition to the majority then the majority (in some cases) is right and the minority is wrong. I'll use myself for an example. If I believe that the powers of my embodiement Knowledge work one way, but the rest of the members don't then I am probably wrong. Probably. If I bring it to the staff I let the staff decide. If the staff decide that it is OP then its probably OP and I, the minority, am wrong. This may well be the case, as we shall probably see soon enough.
The fact that you made a disrespectful response was the reason K2 told you to watch your tone, and this has been done by other staff members trying to stop anything that may incite a growth in the argument that may lead to flaming.

There is a difference between staff opinion and personal opinion. A staff member may hold a different view then the rest of the staff but that does not change the staff's overall opinion. This post, for example, is simply my personal opinion and is not the overall staff opinion to the best of my knowledge.

[Admiral Regis Hermitage]

s I do agree with Hitoper that the Embodiment of Knowledge is OP, I also want to point out that you bitched about point 2 when I was running staff. Dude... Make up your mind about who you want in charge. Otherwise stop bitching and suggest better alternatives.

Sorry if I'm being an ass, but Damn dude.

[K2]

I'll make a longer post later but as I've said... Staff has repeatedly said that breaking the fourth wall should be done for comedic purposes only.

[Gaserlake]

Joking should sometimes be condemned, such as joking about putting a bomb in a plane while you're in an airport. I think EVERYONE agreed that there needs to be an IC reason for only letting jokes pass when you're breaking the fourth wall. An OOC reason doesn't cut it. Sure, an OOC reason is to immediately put a stop or a restriction for things, but it isn't enough, as there would be plot holes everywhere.

Just because things have happened already, it doesn't mean that they were to happen again. In this case, just because Orga has broke the fourth wall, it doesn't meant that it is acceptable. In fact, it's unacceptable. You can make a joke about something, while it could have a hidden message telling someone that something's about to happen, or a certain piece of knowledge to become extremely powerful.

Nothing has been said about compromising with the minority... One part of elitism is that you don't care about the minority, while you follow what the majority wants, and ONLY listen to the majority. You put the majority in the "care for" group, while you put the minority in the "ignore" group. This has just happened. One part of arrogance is K2's insulting attitude towards me. I agree, I shouldn't have been disrespectful at all, but he has been disrespectful towards me, and indirectly towards lesser members of the board.

This is just my opinion, but Lyoko shouldn't be in charge, and K2 is close to getting to that point. Looks like we're running out of people. It doesn't matter if they are in charge or not; they're just at their respective points.I'm not asking to be staff. When it comes to staff, I'm just asking to have staff at least change their attitude toward lesser people like me.

[Beware Ye Who Enter Here]

Joking about putting a bomb on a plane in the middle of an airport doesn't seem to quite fit the vein of the joking we're talking about, Gaser. As well, there are already plotholes everywhere, thats just how it is. Theres always going to be things that you don't think about, lines of thought you have looked into. Its not a bad thing necessarily. Or at least, its not im opinion.

Again, I cited Orga as an example because no one seemed to have an issue when he did it. You do now, of course, but at the time no one worried about it. Its also your opinion that its unacceptable.

The staff listens to everybody and proceeds to make a decision based upon what they think is right and fits.  I'm sorry, but I didn't see K2 begin to be insulting towards you in the Skype chat we had. Blade was more insulting to you then K2, honestly. As well, the staffs decision has always been a final unless it was just the MOST UNPOPULAR THING EVER like how everyone went against Lyoko recently. Other then that, thats just how sites are run, dude.

[Admiral Regis Hermitage]

Joking should sometimes be condemned, such as joking about putting a bomb in a plane while you're in an airport. I think EVERYONE agreed that there needs to be an IC reason for only letting jokes pass when you're breaking the fourth wall. An OOC reason doesn't cut it. Sure, an OOC reason is to immediately put a stop or a restriction for things, but it isn't enough, as there would be plot holes everywhere.

Just because things have happened already, it doesn't mean that they were to happen again. In this case, just because Orga has broke the fourth wall, it doesn't meant that it is acceptable. In fact, it's unacceptable. You can make a joke about something, while it could have a hidden message telling someone that something's about to happen, or a certain piece of knowledge to become extremely powerful.

Nothing has been said about compromising with the minority... One part of elitism is that you don't care about the minority, while you follow what the majority wants, and ONLY listen to the majority. You put the majority in the "care for" group, while you put the minority in the "ignore" group. This has just happened. One part of arrogance is K2's insulting attitude towards me. I agree, I shouldn't have been disrespectful at all, but he has been disrespectful towards me, and indirectly towards lesser members of the board.

This is just my opinion, but Lyoko shouldn't be in charge, and K2 is close to getting to that point. Looks like we're running out of people. It doesn't matter if they are in charge or not; they're just at their respective points.I'm not asking to be staff. When it comes to staff, I'm just asking to have staff at least change their attitude toward lesser people like me.

I think after the first few leaders who give you the same treatment, you might want to think.... "Maybe its me?"

[Queen Bright]

Either that or all the leaders just suck.

[Admiral Regis Hermitage]

Well i suppose practical leadership principles that are proven to work in every other situation with normal people, and which make logical sense dont work here. Maybe, just maybe.... Its the members. Food for thought, and i also do keep in mind that i am now apart of that group now.

[Gaserlake]

...How is my opinion unacceptable? I'm not enacting my opinion. I'm merely stating it. What is this, now? Martial law, where I can't state my own opinion that's not offensive? If you took offense to my opinion about Orga breaking the fourth wall, then you're being oversensitive.

Yeah, Lyoko... maybe it's just me, and not my family at all. After multiple people are saying the same thing about me, it's probably true that it's all my fault, and none of it is their fault. Yeah, it was my fault that my uncle has fucking thrown me around like a fucking rag doll, and was one step away from punching my lights out. None of it was his fault. It was all my fault. He was right to do that to me, and I totally deserved it. Oh, and my mother condoned such action my uncle did to me. Multiple people said that it's my fault, and my uncle is in the right. Yeah, it's me. It's all me, and only me. Yeah... that's bullshit, and you know it. Also, you have problems accepting that some of the things that have happened are you fault. Just because more than one source says the same thing, it doesn't make it true. It's also possible that they're all wrong. Just like how multiple people recommended Lyoko as staff... They were all wrong, despite multiple people saying the same thing.

[Beware Ye Who Enter Here]

Again, I cited Orga as an example because no one seemed to have an issue when he did it. You do now, of course, but at the time no one worried about it. Its also your opinion that its unacceptable.

Dude, dude, dude, dude, dude. No. I did not say that your opinion is unacceptable. Your opinion is fine, its just different. I say "It is your opinion that it is unacceptable." Saying that you think that but I do not. I am not in any way demeaning your opinion.

Alright so if everyone could take a breather here and come back with cool heads? Please? Can we not start some great flame bait and just try to figure out what we can do with the issues Gaser has presented? Please?

[Gaserlake]

Oh. Sorry about that. I thought you said "is". I just saw that you said "its".

[Beware Ye Who Enter Here]

Nononononononononono I'm trying to keep things calm and collected and working here XD

[Admiral Regis Hermitage]

This is the last thing im saying regarding this. As i do empathize with your situation, Hitoper, you cannot always blame others for your problems. You get to choose, as a human being, how to let things like that affect you. I've had my fair share of shit dealt to me by life, but i take it all and learn. I don't blame other's actions for my weaknesses, i identify them, and take action to better them. No one can make you feel any way. Its all a choice whether most realize that or not.

If you've been abused before, you can deal with it in a variety of ways, but do not let anyone, no matter who they are, take away your right to choose for yourself. For once you lose that right, you are human no longer. I encourage you to use your pain as a tool to strengthen yourself. Dont use others as an excuse or a scapegoat for your problems. Its better to deal with them using positive and effective methods rather than make excuses.

This is not to put you down. This is to encourage you to become a better you. A stronger you.

[Kota]

Well i suppose practical leadership principles that are proven to work in every other situation with normal people, and which make logical sense dont work here. Maybe, just maybe.... Its the members. Food for thought, and i also do keep in mind that i am now apart of that group now.

Dude; look around you. Logical, normal, and those things are not quite well stocked around here.

[K2]

Hitoper. First off, if I was being disrespectful towards you, I apologize. That was not my intent. My intent was to politely explain to you that member opinion certainly matters to us, but just because one or two members don't like a policy doesn't necessarily mean we will change it -- otherwise we'd be changing the plot every time someone disagreed with us. Instead, we listen to the concerns of the member (as we should be doing now, here) and think about it logically, talk it over with other members, and then make the final decision privately. Yes, it would be great if members could vote on every issue and if members could have the final call on everything, but they don't. We're not trying to be dictators because we really do listen to the members but ultimately we have to make the calls, that's our job.

More importantly, on the issue of Knowledge, I have always felt quite uncomfortable with it, not the breaking the fourth wall part though -- that's supposed to be treated as a joke, and thus, pretty much any breaking of the fourth wall isn't actually cannon. It's like the goof off section. It doesn't actually count. It's just for comedic purposes. This is what we have agreed to, I believe, about breaking the fourth wall.

More importantly I feel we are doing far too much godmoding here. Not just with embodiments but with everything. Make no mistake, this is not like Shattered Evolution. We're not going to pick apart everything. It's just important to make sure some things don't get too out of hand. The staff have been/will continue talking about what we feel is getting too powerful, and we will no doubt consult members about it before we take action. That's how we do.

As for this particular issue itself, I feel Knowledge is godmoding for the same reason I feel Time is godmoding, the idea that all of some history/information/whatever is recorded doesn't sound... Right to me. Both Hik and Zak have placed limits so their characters can't use that. Time doesn't actually remember everything. Knowledge's memory is broken into sections so he can't access it all at once. But I still feel uncomfortable about these things and many others.

[Queen Bright]

Time doesn't actually remember everything.

...She does. She just won't use it or share it as that would be breaking her stance on neutrality. Time is severely limited due to the fact she is neutral in everything.

[Gaserlake]

AGAIN, my idea of compromising with the minority has been ignored. You may listen to people, but you don't listen well. Or you have just ignored it. Either way, I want my idea to be acknowledged.

If it's such a great thing to have everyone to have the final call everything, then why isn't it like that?

So the breaking the fourth wall is not canonical? Eh... It doesn't seem like it... I mean, why hasn't anyone told me this in the first place? If I've been told that it wasn't canonical, then I wouldn't have made a fuss over it, except that it probably should BE in the goof off section.

[UnStellar]

This forum really needs to clear up the democracy vs. oligarchy discussion. Is it mob rule, or are the staff sovereign? If it's NOT mob rule, then non-staff opinions, after being considered, can be rejected. I'm sick of seeing these large topics dedicated to stupid small issues. Staff, step up and make a decision.

[Kota]

I've always thought it worked like this.
If a concept or rule affects the entire bored; either IC or OC. It's usually put to a vote among ALL members.
If it's just the maintenance of the site, basic rules, and minor stuff it's staff problems.  Like involving true names went to a site vote, but making a new planet for no reason other then to add planets is staff business, and the staff has it's own staff sponsored lore events which are kept secret for obvious reasons. Remember; these are usually optional and totally cannot be considered the "main" story. They are only officially sanctioned plot events, and are usually canon due to staff acceptance of events.

[K2]

As I've always seen it we as staff can potentially do whatever we want. But we care about the members too much to actually do that. For major issues we do try to put things to a vote. As Orph said for some things we do not. Staff has the final say. We listen to members but can ultimately reject member input. Will we? No. But we have staff for a reason.

[Gaserlake]

I'd rather have it to where staff cares about members enough to where they would remove the privilege of doing whatever they want. Members help make up the board, too, especially in IC stuff, so they should have some say in IC stuff. They help make up the OOC stuff as well, as they contribute OOC things, as well. Votes? The only thing that does is to see what the members in general want to happen. It wouldn't matter in the end, anyway, because it's the staff's final say. Therefore, even if 100% of the non-staff members say no, the staff can still say yes, and make yes happen. Hell, the staff ARE the members, but it's like the process of a member becoming a staff is to be brainwashed into looking down on the members, as if they never experienced being a non-staff. We already had an incident where someone didn't care about the members enough to keep himself from abusing his powers, and rejected member input, as he was allowed to do whatever he wanted to do. Yet, in the beginning, he was a very accepted person. That was how he became the owner of the website in the first place. Nobody knew that he was going to do what he did, and the same applies to the current staff right now: we don't know what they're going to do. Therefore, I want to limit the staff's powers in a preventive action.

[UnStellar]

Therefore, I want to limit the staff's powers in a preventive action.

Elaborate?